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A conversation with Jacob Stein of The Pop Ups


The Pop Ups came out of left field in 2010 with the release of Outside Voices, a synth-pop debut album that raised the creative bar in the Kindie music scene. The release of Outside Voices also spawned a live puppet show called Pasta! that had successful runs in both New York and L.A.

Jacob Stein, one half of The Pop Ups, took time and answer some of our questions about the new album Radio Jungle, the writing process and the Kindie music scene.

How excited are you to have this project for ready for public consumption?

It’s amazing. For this record we finished it and then we went through more post production. We had it mixed at Roll Poll studio by Andy Baldwin who recently worked on the new Bjork record. We had it mastered. We’ve had it done for awhile, but it’s just great to finally have it out there.

How do you go from zero expectations to being Kindie pop darlings?

I can’t say it’s the easiest thing. You can’t avoid the expectations. We just tried to walk into the room, as innocently as you can, and write songs that gave us pleasure. We weren’t aware this whole Kindie world  even existed. The first time we even heard the word ‘Kindie’ was at KindieFest. The response to Outside Voices was tremendous. For this record, we just tried not to think about it. We just wanted to write the next record that we would enjoy ourselves. We just followed the fun. We reminded ourselves throughout the process, just have fun.

You had previously work on kid related projects, so how did the Pop Ups eventually form?

Jason and I had worked together on a couple of kids music projects that were more from my side of the field. He produced a song for a Jewish kids record in 2007. Before that he came in and played on a Passover musical project that I had been working on. It was his idea. He came to me and said, “Let’s write something together” Initially, we had no expectations. We thought we might take some of the music to some classes and that was about it. There was a moment of recognition for us, that when we sat down to write it, it just followed immediately. As an artist, it’s a rare thing to find somebody that you can write and create with and then to find and continue to write with, it was just a pleasure. To tell you the truth, the first Pop Ups record came from the joy of a collaborative, artistic process. You had to honor a good writing relationship because it was just so rare. It’s amazing to connect to another artist.

Did the knowledge of having to write another puppet show, find its way into the writing process this time around?

That was a difficult decision to figure out. We decided to work the exact same way, but knowing it’s really hard to recreate anything.

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We tried to keep the play angle out of it and not focus on the narrative. Start with ideas for songs that were interesting to us and exploring them. But as we were putting together the Radio Jungle play, there were certainly moments where we asked ourselves “why did we do it this way?” I think Jason and I feel that The Pop Ups, at its root, are a band. As we started to adapt Radio Jungle into a musical, we learned we really had our work cut out for ourselves to try and find connections that made sense. I think Pasta! was an easier show to write. I’m really proud of the new show and excited for it. You can’t try and recreate what you’ve done previously.

How did your relationship with Yo Gabba Gabba Live come about?

One of the producers had seen our Pasta! show and asked us to do a date or two with the live show. We had a visual show that fit in perfectly with Yo Gabba Gabba Live show. We had to make some adaptations.  We were playing such large arenas compared to the Pasta! shows, so we had to remake the Subway Train puppets nearly four times as large as we originally made them. I really think that the crowds, both parents and kids, appreciated something they could really sink into and participate in.  

(At this point Jacob tells a fantastic, Spinal Tap-esque story about their first performance at a Yo Gabba Gabba live show. Typing the words simply won’t do it justice. So the next time you see him, ask him about the story and the phrase “What do you mean it’s not gonna work? )

How has the kids music scene been on your wallet?

You know, that’s a tough question. As an artist, it’s hard to talk about money. We have been extremely happy to find such a enthusiastic audience. We have found the kindie scene has such a large area for growth. We have been grateful. Let’s just say we haven’t been able to quit our day jobs, but we have however enjoyed our success. The dream is to be able to create our art all the time. As some point, the Kindie scene will get there.

What has been the biggest surprise with discovering the kindie scene?  

I think there were two surprises. First, the bands that we’ve become friends with. The guys in Recess Monkey are great and Lucky Diaz is a pal of ours. There is a bunch more. It’s just been really cool to find other artists who are very similar to us in what they want. Which is that they just want to make music that they love, that can be capable of connecting with kids.

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It’s been really cool to find kindred artist out there.

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The second aspect I love is the dialog between writers. Stefan Shepherd writes really well and Jeff Bogle writes really well. The people that take it seriously are really thinking and engaging in a dialog about the scene. I like the higher level discussion. I get a real kick out of it.

Listen to the new album in it’s entirety below. If you can’t move your head to ‘Box of Crayons’ we can’t be friends.

A Conversation with Ellis Paul

Five years after releasing Dragonfly Races, Ellis Paul returns to kids’ music with The Hero in You. The album takes a look back at people who have made an impact on American history in a variety of ways. Whether Paul is singing about Benjamin Franklin or lesser-known individuals like Augustus Jackson, he finds an incredibly compelling way to tell their story.

One lucky reader will win a copy of his new album, The Hero in You. Simply leave a comment, ‘share’ this Dadnabbit post on Facebook or retweet this on Twitter and you’ll be entered to win.

Dadnabbit was lucky enough to talk to Ellis Paul about his new record — here’s what he had to say:

With the new record, there is a sense of pride about telling the stories of people who have impacted American history.

It was really affirming, both to be an American and write it — heck, even having the ability to write it. I mean, if I was in Afghanistan I wouldn’t be able to write this record. A lot of that was coming up as I wrote. These people are really, really leading figures at creating protection for human equality. Because I’m so far removed from high school history books, it was good to be reminded of the great things from our history.

How do you follow up a kids’ record that had no expectations — how do you match or exceed it?

I think the main thing is realizing the expectations. It’s a side project. I do around 150 shows a year and only a handful of them are kids’ shows — maybe 30 or 40.

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It’s never going to eat up the other half of my career, which is writing for adults or for films or television shows. That said, I take the songs equally seriously, and try to just put as much art and time into writing them. There is a lot of joy in those songs that you don’t find in my adult stuff. I’m glad it’s in my life. It balances the yin and yang. I’m both a dad and artist when I’m writing these songs.

How do you balance touring and being a father at the same time?

My touring is restricted to the weekends. But I’m away pretty much every weekend. It’s very hard on my wife. She balances being a single mom when I’m away and she’s done an amazing job and I’m thankful for all that she does. I’m back home on Monday and here until Friday.

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It’s hard, but this  is my calling. I feel compelled to keep doing it.

The new album has a very specific theme. How did the idea come about, and how did you choose the subjects?

My daughters are getting older. I wanted to do an album that was geared towards first and second graders, but all the way up to probably seventh grade. I was a big fan of School House Rock. I had written one song about Benjamin Franklin, but thought, “Why not write a whole record on this?” so I hunkered down and wrote a conceptual record.

Can you see yourself making more historically themed records?

I would love to — they’re a lot of fun. There are people like Jesse Owens, Martin Luther King Jr., Abraham Lincoln. But I wanted to mix it up with some people that are less well known. I’m hoping to do two or three of these records and then move on to maybe historical events if the well runs dry.

How do you find a way to make children’s music financially beneficial to you?

Well that’s the smallest part of my business. I make more money writing and performing music for adults than I do for children. That said, a lot of people that buy my kids’ records buy them at my adult shows. They buy them for their kids, grandkids, nieces, nephews.

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I’d probably say that kids’ music makes up about one-third of what I make. It fulfills my mission as a folk musician, probably more than anything else that I am doing.

What was the appeal to creating children’s music in the first place?

If I didn’t have kids, I wouldn’t be doing this. But I wanted them to grow up with music that was mine. So if Dad is away on a tour, they could put me on the stereo. They were able to be a part of and see the process of making a record. It was a great way for the family to come together on a project.

Do you find yourself with more artistic freedom in children’s music?

The rules are changed for kids’ music. I’m allowed to be more funkier with children’s music. I have a hip-hop song, a spoken word track and a cappella song. Those are choices I couldn’t make on an adult record. I don’t want to be so stuck in the singer/songwriter thing and approach the songs in one way. The adult records want to have continuity to them, whereas a kids’ record just wants to be entertaining song by song. The rule book has changed and it’s a lot more free with kids’ music.

What’s the reaction from your peers when they hear you’re making kids music?

I think they get it, because I’m a dad. They know Woody Guthrie, Johnny Cash, and Greg Brown all did kids’ music. It’s a little weird for the Verve Pipe or They Might Be Giants to be doing this music. But for folk singers it fits in naturally. I’m not afraid of how people view it. I don’t see negativity with it. Whether I’m writing a song for Volkswagen or a song about social injustice, I just want to be known as a great songwriter.

What’s the difference in playing a club where people have been drinking all night compared to kids hopped up on sugar at one of your kids’ shows?

There is not a lot of difference, actually. Sometimes there are crowd control issues at a kids’ show. But there’s nothing better than hearing a song you wrote being sung back to you by 100 kids. It’s just a wonderful feeling.

Considering the Song: “Buckeye Jim”

Over the years, my friend Bill Childs and I have had a number of conversations about (and periodically mused about starting a podcast based around) the folk-friendly nature of kindie music — and not “folk” in the way we’ve been conditioned to think of it, i.e. college kids singing about their feelings outside coffee shops, but in the truly traditional sense of the word. As anyone who’s spent any amount of time listening to children’s music could tell you, it’s a lot more acceptable (encouraged, even) for artists to perform traditional folk standards, and the downside of this is that you’ll end up hearing countless versions of “Mister Rabbit” and “Ring Around the Rosie” until you want to cry; I think it’s worth it, though, because it gives us a chance to strengthen our ties to our shared musical history.

These songs have sort of faded into the background for a lot of us, even as they’re playing, but they say a lot about who we are and where we’ve come from. Even though the versions we’re familiar with today have often been bleached of their original meaning, their stories still echo through their chords, and if we really take the time to absorb them, they can offer surprisingly rich rewards.

Today I want to write a little about “Buckeye Jim” — probably not the most over-recorded song in the family music canon, but certainly one that most of us have heard more times than we can count. It’s undergone something of a resurgence in popularity over the last few years, thanks to Wes Anderson’s inclusion of Burl Ives’ version in the soundtrack to Fantastic Mr. Fox, but it’s a lot older than Ives; I’m actually not sure anyone’s been able to definitively trace it back to its source.

“Jim” is part of the deepest folk music tradition, harking back to a time when there really wasn’t any such thing as a “definitive” version of a song; lines were added, subtracted, and absorbed as performers carried them from place to place. The “Buckeye Jim” that survives today has its roots in what’s commonly referred to as the “Limber Jim” group or tree of songs, and shares bits of DNA with everything from “Jim Along Josie,” “Shiloh,” and “Liza Jane” (the latter of which boasts its own rich history and large number of offspring).

My daughter fell in love with “Buckeye Jim” through Elizabeth Mitchell’s version, which is found on her You Are My Little Bird album (along with “Little Liza Jane,” actually). It’s a beautiful rendition of the song, one that emphasizes its lilting arrangement and follows the peaceful adventures of birds as they weave, nest, and spin. She also loves Caspar Babypants’ version, recorded for This Is Fun!, which is a little more sprightly — and works in a Babypants-penned B section that, with its lines promising an end to grief and pain, offers a hint of the song’s original, darker tone.

Both versions diverge from the traditional version Ives recorded, which concludes with a verse about an old woman dying of whooping cough in an old wooden trough, which is understandable, albeit slightly lamentable. Although that verse is kind of horrific out of context — and Ives’ version just sort of drops the listener in as an oh-by-the-way after its lines about red birds dancing with green bullfrogs — that verse isn’t just there to give your children nightmares.

“Limber Jim” shares some of its musical ingredients with “Jim Along Josie,” but where that song offers a sort of willfully goofy minstrel travelogue, “Limber” is a darker, stranger tale, with references to gambling, violence, and various gross, fantastical creatures:

Went down the ribber, couldn’t get across;
Hopped on a rebel louse; thought ’twas a hoss,
Oh, lor’, gals, ‘t ain’t no lie,
Lice in Camp Chase big enough to cry

Bridle up a rat, sir; saddle up a cat,
Please han’ me down my Leghorn hat,
Went to see widow; widow warn’t home;
Saw to her daughter–she geve me honeycomb.

Jay-bird sittin’ on a swinging limb,
Winked at me an’ I winked at him.
Up with a rock an’ struck him on the shin,
God damn yer soul, don’t wink again.

So on and so forth. “Buckeye Jim” takes that basic meter, adds some cuddlier animals, and shifts the focus closer to home. In the version Ives came across, the lyrics warned:

Buckeye Jim, you can’t go
Go weave and spin, you can’t go
Buckeye Jim.

Those lines cut to the heart of the song’s roots as a worker’s (or, more accurately, slave’s) lament — a sort of matter-of-fact cautionary tale about the consequences of breaking rules that can’t be broken, and the death that rewards even those who follow the rules. (The folks at Mudcat go into a lot more detail in this thread — block off an afternoon and go soak in their scholarship.) This commenter at Rootsweb hits it right on the head, I think:

As “a children’s song” or “a lullaby” it might have served several purposes — subtle instruction on fixed class and power differences; caution about any “impulse to flight” and the consequences of acting on such an impulse — or the “wooden trough/holler log” consequences of staying; portable self-comforting if you got separated or sold off from your family, or them dead or killed and you bound out… Then too it’s not hard to imagine its origins as a “working blues”… sing the truths you can’t safely say… keep each other’s spirits up … share sadness, courage, soul, and wit.

All things to think about the next time you’re humming along with someone’s pretty cover of “Buckeye Jim.” And you’ve got your choice of versions to choose from — Allmusic has an impressive list here, and I put together 14 of them in this Spotify playlist, including the versions by Caspar Babypants, Elizabeth Mitchell, Burl Ives, and Ella Jenkins. Enjoy — and if there’s something you’d like to see covered in our Considering the Song series, please let me know!